Play a Stinkin’ Cute Game of Hot POOtato with Baby Ninjas

Roy Morejon:
Welcome, entrepreneurs and startups to Art of the Kickstart, the show that every entrepreneur needs to listen to before you launch. I’m your host, Roy Morejon, President and Founder of Enventys Partners, the world’s only turnkey product launch company. From product development and engineering to omnichannel marketing, we’ve helped our clients launch thousands of inventions and earn more than $1 billion in sales over the past 20 years.

Roy Morejon:
Each week, I interview a startup success story, an inspirational entrepreneur, or a business expert, in order to help you take your launch to the next level. This show would not be possible without our main sponsor, ProductHype, the weekly newsletter that goes out and shows you the best inventions that just launched. Make sure to check out producthype.co and join the Hype squad. Now let’s get on with the show.

Roy Morejon:
All right, welcome to another edition of Art of the Kickstart. Today, I am joined by Dom and Dan. These guys are the creators of an amazing game called Baby Ninjas. So, Dom, you are the game developer. Daniel, you are the game designer. You guys, well, Dom specifically, you enjoy games of all sorts, right? And love friendly games of competition like us all during this pandemic. We’ve definitely gone after that. But Dan, you have a variety background and experiences, including practicing dentistry, which is amazing. And owning an escape room and pastoring a small church. Man, you are the Swiss army 007 guy of everything.

Roy Morejon:
But super excited to have you guys both on the show and super excited that both of you guys have now combined your interests and abilities to put out this game, Baby Ninjas. This campaign is about to launch March 7th. So, Dom, Dan, super excited to have you guys on the show. Thank you for joining me today.

Dan:
Yeah. Thank you, Roy, so much. It’s definitely a privilege to be here, just to be able to talk to you and to share about our passion and what we’ve created.

Roy Morejon:
Excellent. So, I got to ask, that was quite the intro. I really have to ask, where did this guy start for the two of you? How did you guys meet and what inspired you to create Baby Ninjas?

Dan:
Yeah. So, it all started because of COVID and with me owning an escape room during that time of quarantine. And during that summer, honestly, the escape room was struggling. It’s an entertainment business and no one was looking to one, go out and have fun, but especially gathered together in groups. So, that left me with a lot of time, just like a lot of people, at home and with not a lot to do. And so, I sat around and had a lot of time to brainstorm. And just wanted to see if I can come up with an idea for a board game or a tabletop game.

Dan:
And as I was brainstorming, the idea just came, fell upon this idea, this concept. And I thought, “Wow, this might have some legs.” So, we wanted to play test it. We wanted to really see what it would look like, because in my head, the idea sounded fun and it sounded good. Couple of my inspirations actually was One Night Ultimate Werewolf. I don’t know if you’ve had the chance to play or if any of our viewers have had a chance to play, but I like aspect of trying to figure out who’s the werewolf and who’s not. And everyone has this hidden identity. And then the game, as you play it, you unravel and try to figure everything out. So, that was one big inspiration for the game.

Dan:
And so, I knew that I had this great idea, but I really needed to play test it and really needed to help figure out to make it a really polished concept. So, that’s when I reached out to Dom, who I’ve known for a few years, met him through one of my business partners, he’s his brother. And so, that’s when we said, “Hey, this idea might have some legs, let’s throw it out there.” We actually bought some blank cards off of eBay and just started scribbling on these blank cards to see if our game, how it played, if it was any fun.

Dan:
So, we did that, and just one step led to another and then we got the theme. And so yeah, it just snowballed from there. And then we thought, “Wow, people are having a lot of fun and this is great, so let’s roll with it. Let’s see what we can do and maybe see if we can get some crowdfunding, to see this actually become a real game, because we’d love to get it in people’s hands.” Yeah.

Roy Morejon:
Absolutely. So, in talking about the game, I guess, as if I’ve never heard it before and obviously nobody’s played it yet, what was the process of going through in terms of creating it and the inspiration, in terms of the focus on this specific topic?

Dan:
Yeah. I am a gamer myself, not just with board games and card games, but I also enjoy video games even. And one thing that, as I’ve always really enjoyed Nintendo games, specifically from Nintendo as a company, and I know that one of their philosophies is to start with gameplay. So, that’s what they want to emphasize, is that when you play their games, they want to make sure that the game is fun to play first, before they worry about how well it looks, before they worry about the theme of the game, before they worry about story or plot, all of that. They’re like, gameplay first.

Dan:
And so, looking at that, we saw that as, “Hey, that’s a good foundation, is let’s make this gameplay first.” And so, there was this idea of playing hot potato with cards. And that was the basic … At its very core that’s the basic element of this game, is that you’ve got this envelope and this token inside this envelope, that you’re not sure if it’s a good token or a bad token. In this case, a clean baby ninja or a dirty baby ninja with a dirty diaper. And you’ve got to figure that out.

Dan:
And once you figure that out, you’ve got to make sure that you’re holding onto the clean baby at the end of the round. And so, that’s the gist of it. And we wanted to make sure, even before we had the theme, that the game was fun to play. And so actually, when we play tested, we didn’t even mention the theme at all. We didn’t tell people, “Hey, this is the theme we’re thinking about.” It’s funny, because when we scribbled on the cards, we wanted to make it look, in a sense, not look nice.

Roy Morejon:
Sure.

Dan:
And so, the point was there was that, so that when people played, they weren’t drawn to the aesthetic at all. They didn’t know what the theme was, and could they still have fun playing the game when it’s just bare bones? And we found that, yeah, they could. And so we thought, “Okay, well this is great. This is great to build on.”

Roy Morejon:
So, I’ve got to ask, are either of you guys dads? Is this where the impetus of the dirty baby diaper came into play?

Dan:
Yes, absolutely. So, that would be me. That would be me. So, during quarantine, my wife and I, we had two kids at the time, a boy and a girl. And we had a family of four, it felt perfect. Son was eight, daughter is seven years old. We thought, “Man, this is good. We’ve been parents for a while, several years now. This is great.” And lo and behold, quarantine, you’re locked at home, trapped at home, not much else to do. Well, we had a big oops. And we accidentally got pregnant and we were, to be honest, we were not excited about being pregnant again. Totally unplanned, definitely unintended, and we did not want to go through the diaper stage all over again, and all of that. We thought we were done.

Dan:
And so, that actually played into the theme quite a bit, because after we landed on this concept, this idea, obviously in my mind, I’m thinking, “Man, baby, baby, baby’s coming, baby’s coming.” And so, that was constantly. And somehow, hot potato just translated really well to hot pootato. And I thought, “Well, I mean, if there’s one thing you’re trying to avoid, you’re trying to avoid a dirty diaper.” My wife and I are constantly like, “Hey, there’s a dirty diaper. It’s your turn.” “No, it’s your turn.

Roy Morejon:
“Your turn.” That’s always the phrase, right, in marriage, your turn?

Dan:
Yes, exactly. And so, it’s a constant, “The baby’s diaper is dirty. I don’t want to do it. You go do it.” How do we figure out who has diaper duty, has to go change the diaper? And so, that’s how the theme landed and yeah, and so, that’s how that came about.

Roy Morejon:
Nice. So, in terms of the creation, you mentioned the ugliness of the cards initially and not preempting the folks that were playing the game early on, I think is a great marketing nugget, all on its own, in terms of, “Hey, here’s the raw and dirty game, item, prototype, whatever it may be, have an experience with it.” Like you said, Dan, in terms of the Nintendo experience and then just seeing how it plays out and how they react to it. What did that process go in terms of, again, just giving a down and dirty version, and then the iterations of change to get it to the final design that it’s at today?

Dominic:
Yeah. So, like Dan said, the first iteration was scribbled down notes on some blank cards, and we really wanted to focus on gameplay, seeing how people enjoy the game like that. But it was definitely tough handing a deck with a bunch of scribbles on it to people and saying, “Hey, let’s have fun with this.” They’re like, “What is this? How’s it going to go?” But I was telling my friends, “Hey, we got to sit down. You guys got to play this game with me and my family.” And it was like, you’re halfway through the round and you start to see the smirk on people’s face when they realize, “Oh, okay. I see what’s going on here. I see the deception that’s going on and how you’re switching diaper tokens, and trying to deceive your neighbor and pass cards.”

Dominic:
And so, the gameplay started to go smooth, once people got into it. It was definitely a bumpy ride. It took us a long time to get where we are now in terms of how many cards are going to be in the deck to make things flow? How many players can play. There’s a lot of questions that you don’t really think about having to answer until you get in there and just start play testing. And so, we would make a bunch of iterations and then go and test again and try to get feedback from people. And so, we were constantly having updated spreadsheets of, “All right, how many of this kind of card is there? Okay. Does that make it too easy? Does that make it too hard?”

Dominic:
And so, for card games specifically, I think play testing was huge, and getting feedback and trying to feel how the game works. For most of the time, I would maybe not even play, I would sit back and just watch and take notes and see how people were asking, what kind of questions they were asking. Do they understand the directions? Things like that. So, it took a long time to get where we are now, but with all those updates, we finally had the final card count and all of our specifications. And so we’re like, “Okay, it’s time to make a nice prototype and incorporate this theme.”

Roy Morejon:
Nice. So, Dom, in terms of the testing, I love that you obviously did pre-campaign validation with friends and family. Did you test, potentially, heavy game players like Dan or some of the other folks that are out there in your community, that could give you maybe deeper insights in terms of the games and the stickiness factor of them, to make them want to continue to play them more often than once?

Dominic:
Sure. I mean, it’s difficult to find gameplay experts, but it was definitely my goal when I was looking for people to test this out. I want to find people that’s our market, that actually enjoys this game, because I noticed the results wouldn’t be the same for someone who’s not as familiar with gameplay, and that can skew your results. So, I would play with a couple friends who wanted to see it, that maybe didn’t have a ton of experience with games. Simple concepts like, “All right, you play a couple cards and then you have to redraw.” If that’s confusing you, maybe you might not be our market.

Dominic:
So, luckily, I have a bunch of big time game players in my close circle and getting in contact with friends, “Hey, this person would really find it interesting.” And I would make sure to go out of my way and play test with them. And Dan as well, has a bunch of connections. Like he mentioned, he was the owner of an escape room, and that’s right up a lot of people’s alley who enjoy escape rooms. They like games. They like competition and challenges. And so, play testing people in that market as well, helped us to get a better sense of where we were actually at with our market.

Roy Morejon:
Dan, are we ever going to see an escape room for the baby changing room or table?

Dan:
That sounds like a good idea. You go into an escape room, get locked with a dirty diaper. You got to figure out how to get out of there quick.

Roy Morejon:
The scent gets worse with time, right? Before the bomb explodes. I can see it now

Dan:
That’s a great concept. I wonder why no escape room has thought of that yet?

Roy Morejon:
I don’t know, man. Here we go. This is it. Live feedback. I love it. Well, listen, I’d love to talk also about maybe some of the marketing stuff that you guys have done. Maybe there was a marketing mishap in terms of your pre-campaign and some of your learnings along the way. So, anything to share there?

Dominic:
Yeah. So, we had been experimenting or thinking about different ways to market this. It’s obviously tough when you’re crowdfunding, because people don’t actually have the game yet. So, we can’t really rely so much on gameplay, which I think is our strong suit. We have to focus on this theme and get people excited about what the game is about. And so, we did a lot of advertisements featuring the cards and the deck, to show people that it’s a nice, clean product. And we did some lifestyle shots of people playing the game, having a good time.

Dominic:
But we also tried to throw in some of our artwork, because I think that that’s a strong suit of the game as well. And so, we got a bunch of different types of Baby Ninjas. They’re all different styles and themes, with headbands and masks on and stuff. And so, we were putting artwork out onto our Facebook Ads, and it was just an oversight on our part, but there was one advertisement with a picture of a Baby Ninja and he’s wearing a black mask and his headband happens to be green. And we didn’t think anything of it. And then, we started getting all these negative comments on Facebook, not very nice, because they thought that this Baby Ninja resembled a Hamas terrorist, because of the color combination of the green and black.

Dominic:
And I mean, it just goes to show, you can never prepare too much or double check your ads. Something’s going to slip through the cracks. And we just thought we were making fun babies that are going to have poopy diapers, and people take it differently than you intend. So, that was definitely a mishap. We had some mean comments there, but we pushed through. We were trying to highlight the diversity of our babies and show different colors and stuff. And we just happened to have a tough combo on that one, but we’re going to change the color of the bandana and hopefully, people will calm down a little bit.

Roy Morejon:
No, I’m sure they will. I’m sure they will. So, you’ve been working with us here at Enventys Partners for a while now, in terms of getting this campaign prepped and ready. What were some of those considerations that you guys went through in terms of choosing an agency to partner with on this launch?

Dominic:
Well, we did a bunch of research on a bunch of different agencies that do what Enventys does. And we got on the phone with some people and asked what types of things that they would be helping us with. For us, we’ve never done this before, so we wanted a company that would give us the full package. Help us with everything that we would need and then maybe not help us in areas that we were comfortable with.

Dominic:
And I don’t know, we found that Enventys was, I think, just the most willing to help with our needs in whatever it was, and allowing us to work with other companies if we wanted to. If we wanted to outsource something or do something ourself, there was no problems there. And a lot of other agencies didn’t necessarily give us that freedom. So, we wanted the freedom and the support and assistance at the same time, which is, that’s the entrepreneur’s dream, right? Let me do what I want, but help me when I need it. And so, I think we landed on Enventys for that combination. I don’t know if you have anything else to add on that, Dan?

Dan:
Well, I would just say that it’s been a super positive experience. I mean, just seeing the strength of the team as a whole, because we really feel like marketing is not our strong suit and we have so many bases covered by the team at Enventys. And so, it’s been incredibly helpful for us. And looking back, we’re like, we don’t know how not working with Enventys would’ve worked out for us. It would’ve been terrible.

Dominic:
Yeah. Yeah. It’s been great.

Roy Morejon:
Oh, that’s great to hear, guys. Well, gentlemen, this is going to get us into our launch round. Dom, you drew the dirty diaper, so you’re going to get all the questions.

Dominic:
Yeah.

Roy Morejon:
You good to go?

Dominic:
All right, bring it on. Let’s go.

Roy Morejon:
Let’s do this. So, what inspired you to be an entrepreneur?

Dominic:
Well, I come from a very competitive family. I have two brothers and a sister, and we all play sports and we all want to do our thing and be the best. And my oldest brother was actually an entrepreneur first. In high school, he started his own basketball camp and made some money over summers with his friends, and then continued along that path and met up with Dan, and started this escape room with him as well. So, I got to see that whole process play out. And I was like, “Wow, this is really cool. My older brother set his mind to something and he was able to go and make it a reality.”

Dominic:
And you hear about other people doing that, but when it’s your family member, it hits close to home and it’s inspiring. It’s like, “Hey, I can do this too.” And so, I went to college at TCU and they’re one of the few schools in the country that has a really good entrepreneurship program. So, I majored in entrepreneurship and minored in finance. And so, it was always my goal to do something like that. I ran a volleyball camp myself in high school and was able to do that over summers. So yeah, I would say that was my inspiration.

Roy Morejon:
Nice. So, if you could meet up with any entrepreneur throughout history and potentially play Baby Ninjas with them, who would it be?

Dominic:
When you open the door to history, there’s so many options, it’s hard to pick one. The first one that comes to my mind is a little bit more recent. He’s a guy named Jocko Willink, and he’s an ex-Navy SEAL, and he has started a bunch of different companies. He’s got energy drink companies. He makes American made boots and jeans. And the guy is just ruthless. He puts his mind to something and he makes it happens. He’s like, “Hey, people, there’s a gap in this part of the market. I’m going to go fill it.” Like, “Hey, everyone’s wearing jeans in the airport.” And he calls his business partner up, he goes, “Hey, why aren’t we making jeans?” And it’s like, boom, now they’re making jeans.

Dominic:
And it’s really inspiring to see someone that can just go out and believe in himself and get after it. And he’s also an ex-Navy SEAL, so in terms of that win-win mindset, playing Baby Ninjas with him would be pretty intense, but I think it would be a good time. So, that would be my choice.

Roy Morejon:
I can only imagine, with the Extreme Ownership side of Jocko out there. Great read, obviously a great book, and he’s got many books out there. So, if you had the chance with Jocko, you’re sitting down at gameplay, what would be your first question for him?

Dominic:
My first question for Jocko. Well, I would probably ask, “When does he know that he’s got an idea that’s worth pursuing?” That, oftentimes, is the biggest struggle for me, because I’m constantly thinking of business ideas. As an entrepreneur major I’m like, if I see something I think could be better, I’m writing it down. And there’s all sorts of different pathways to go. And so, someone like him, who’s had experience in a lot of different industries, I’d be like, “Hey, how do you know when something is really worth pursuing and turning into something bigger?” So, it’d be interesting to hear what he had to say to that.

Roy Morejon:
Nice. So, sticking on the Jocko theme then-

Dominic:
Sure. Go ahead.

Roy Morejon:
… what do you think are the top three skills that every entrepreneur needs to be successful?

Dominic:
Well, number one, like you mentioned, I would say, extreme ownership. You can’t be blaming things on other people. It might make you feel better to do that, but you’re not going to actually advance or make yourself better or make your business better. So, I’d say that’s important, taking accountability. I would say vision, right? You got to have some sort of goal that you’re working towards. If you live day-to-day, or don’t really know what the end goal is for your product, it’s going to be really hard to navigate all of the challenges, right? How do I make a decision if I don’t know where I’m headed in the future? So, I’d say vision.

Dominic:
And then the last one, a combination, I would say, thick skin and trust in yourself. When you’re getting a lot of feedback from people, there’s going to be good feedback and bad feedback. And everyone wants to give you advice and tell you what’s wrong. And how do you sift through that? Right? You got to have thick skin to maybe glance off some of the negative things, but use it constructively. But at the end of the day, you got to trust yourself to make decisions. “Hey, I think this is the right idea.” Because a lot of the best ideas throughout history were shot down right out the gate. And so, you got to have water off the duck and keep moving.

Roy Morejon:
Absolutely. So, what’s one invention that’s made your life easier during this pandemic?

Dominic:
One invention that’s made my life easier? Well, I would say Microsoft Teams.

Roy Morejon:
There you go. Technology.

Dominic:
Yeah, technology. Seriously. I’ve got another job. I work in finance. And so, I’ve been working remote for the last year-and-a-half. And I don’t know what my job would be like if I wasn’t able to get on a phone, a video chat, share my screen. I mean, geez, whoever invented the screen sharing aspect is a genius. It really has allowed work to be more efficient and effective remote. And so, that’s made my life a lot easier.

Roy Morejon:
Nice. Well, Dom, this is the last question, and I know the campaign hasn’t launched yet as we record this, but I’m interested to hear your take on what does the future of crowdfunding look like?

Dominic:
What does the future of crowdfunding look like? Well, I think it’s getting more and more popular and with the rise of technology and communication, it’s so much easier to communicate with people and share ideas and get businesses off the ground. And I think a big part of why everyone is not doing this is just awareness. A lot of people don’t know, I have to explain to them what we’re doing and how we’re launching. I’m like, “Hey, we’re crowdfunding for this.” And they’re like, “Wow, that’s really interesting.” It makes things a lot easier. And so, I think the future is very bright. I think it’s going to continue to get a lot of traction. And I think it’s going to help a lot more businesses prop up, which will make people’s lives easier and more entertaining, in our case. So, I think it’s looking good.

Roy Morejon:
Awesome. Well, Dom, thank you for the launch round.

Dominic:
Sure.

Roy Morejon:
Dan, you’ve been quiet. So, this is your opportunity to give our audience your pitch. Tell people what you’re all about, where they should go and why they should check out Baby Ninjas?

Dan:
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. We’re just excited that we had landed on an idea and we’re having been able to develop it. And it’s been a fun journey, a great process. And we’ve seen people have a lot of fun along the way. We, ourselves, have had fun, and we want to share that. We want to share that with … We know that there’s a lot of people out there who would enjoy this game, whether they are hardcore board game enthusiasts, or even kids at home with their family. Because even my own kids love playing this game. They want to play it more than I do. Yeah. So, our Kickstarter’s launching on March 7th, you can find out more information by going to babyninjas.com or simply go to Kickstarter and look up Baby Ninjas.

Roy Morejon:
Awesome. Well, Dan and Dominic, thank you so much for joining me today. Audience, thanks again for tuning in. Make sure to visit artofthekickstart.com for the notes, the transcript, links to the campaign, and everything else we talked about today. And of course, got to give a shout out to our crowdfunding podcast sponsor ProductHype. And if you like this episode as much as I did, make sure to leave us a review on iTunes. Dan, Dom, thank you so much for joining us today on Art of the Kickstart.

Dan:
Thanks for having us, Roy.

Dominic:
Thank you, Roy. It’s been an incredible pleasure. Thank you so much.

Roy Morejon:
Of course. Thank you for tuning into another amazing episode of Art of the Kickstart, the show about building a better business, life, and world, with crowdfunding. If you’ve enjoyed today’s episode as much as I did, make sure to show us some love, by rating us and reviewing us on your favorite listening station, whatever that may be.

Roy Morejon:
Your review really helps other founders and startups find us, so they can improve their craft and achieve greater success like you. And of course, be sure to visit artofthekickstart.com for all the previous episodes. And if you need any help, make sure to send me an email at info@artofthekickstart.com. I’ll be glad to help you out. Thanks again for tuning in. I’ll see you next week.